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Krillin vs Tien
Topic Started: Aug 24 2014, 01:58 AM (2,437 Views)
Android19 Aug 24 2014, 01:58 AM Post #1
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Both at the end of Z.
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DSTREET45 Aug 24 2014, 05:11 AM Post #2
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 Krillin. There's at least three sources that prove/imply so.


http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/88/t2019630-tien-krillin/#m36836686
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POOHEAD189 Aug 24 2014, 05:15 AM Post #3
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 Tien.

I prefer going with logic and the manga over Toriyama who contradicts. And if Toriyama is infallible in his judgement, then that doesn't change my answer. It just makes Tien not human. (which I dislike since one of the main reasons I enjoyed Tien at first was because he was such a skilled human).
Edited by POOHEAD189, Aug 24 2014, 05:16 AM.
Tha gaol agam ort. <3
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+ Pyrus Aug 24 2014, 05:25 AM Post #4
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 This again.

http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8786595&t=8423491
Krillin IS the Strongest Earthling
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8786058&t=8423067
http://w11.zetaboards.com/Shinden_Reborn/single/?p=8071468&t=8247247
http://w11.zetaboards.com/Shinden_Reborn/single/?p=8071444&t=8247247
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8819727&t=8429711 (this one's huge)
http://www.pojo.biz/board/showthread.php?t=1124240 (a whole thread for those who have the time)
The Strength of the Humans (Ver 2.0)
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8578277&t=8387412
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8578438&t=8387412
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8578464&t=8387412
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8578675&t=8387412
Pyrus
 
Tired subject? Completely, so let's make it quick.

When people bring up the Daizenshuu mentioning that Tenshinhan is a descendant of the Three-Eyed people, they use that to claim he does not fit into the Earthling category. What I want to get clearly across is that, no, that does not disqualify him from being an Earthling.

"Why not?", you may ask.

In Daizenshuu 4, the guidebook that first propped up this "Three-Eyed clan" mess, Tenshinhan is placed in the Earthling section. He is listed under the "Martial Artist" sub-section.[1] Notice that beings like Boss Rabbit, the King of Earth, Puar, Shuu, Oolong, Akkuman, Pilaf, Mummy, the Invisible Man, and Dracula Man are all listed under the Earthling section as well, even though they are clearly not the first thing you probably think of when someone says "Earthling."

They're animals and monsters, but they're still considered Earthlings. If they're considered Earthlings, despite obviously not being human, why is it that Tenshinhan, who is merely a descendant of an alien race, is always the exception? If you're an American but you have German ancestry, does that make you any less American?

Tenshinhan is always grouped with the other Earthlings, is never mentioned in the series to be anything but an Earthling, and considers himself an Earthling. He is listed as an Earthling in the same book that mentions his alien ancestry. I don't think it could be any clearer that he is supposed to count as an Earthling; he simply has some alien ancestry.
[2]

The manga says Krillin is the strongest earthling*, the guidebooks/supplementary material back it up, and Toriyama says the same thing. This really should not spiral into another ten page debate because every scrap of evidence has basically been provided in the links above.

*"Earthling" includes Tenshinhan, regardless of how much alien ancestry you think he may have. He's still grouped with Krillin, Yamcha, Mummy, Akkuman, the King of the Earth, Chaozu, etc. This isn't a debate over the term "human," which has been used to describe just about everyone throughout the series at one point or another.
[1] http://web.archive.org/web/20111104071121/http://kanzentai.com/trans-daiz04.php?m=02&id=race#link
[2] Tenshinhan IS an "Earthling"
Edited by Pyrus, Aug 24 2014, 05:45 AM.
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Hurry My Curry Aug 24 2014, 05:54 AM Post #5
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Master Troll

 The pecking order has always been Tien > Krillin, BUT the statements imply otherwise. BUT, I just like Tien so he must be stronger than Krillin.
Miles for mod
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POOHEAD189 Aug 24 2014, 05:57 AM Post #6
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 The manga quote is speculative, Toriyama forgets more things about DB than any of us, and unless you count video games/other fans as reliable source material, then my statement still stands.

I find it odd how people say I follow the bible blindly when they think this way.

http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/88/t1240525-tien-vs-krillin-answer/

This thread brings up a lot of good points. (most of which I have used in the past. It shows the manga implies Tien's superiority far more, especially in the Android Arc).

http://jctunesmusic.wordpress.com/2013/10/27/dragonball-z-best-of-the-earthlings-tien-vs-krillin/
This guy seemed to have thought a lot on the subject as well. (He's only read the manga once but he knows what is/isn't filler).
Edited by POOHEAD189, Aug 24 2014, 05:58 AM.
Tha gaol agam ort. <3
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+ Pyrus Aug 24 2014, 05:58 AM Post #7
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Kaboom
 
Tenshinhan once being stronger than Kuririn does not mean he stayed that way. Past trends do not determine the future, and "status quo" only applies when there's nothing to indicate that it changed. A character statement in the manga, comments from the original author, and a smattering of supplementary material relating to the story indicate that it did change.


@POOHEAD: Do you have a smaller list of points there? The burden of proof would be on you to prove Tenshinhan is stronger here. It's quite a b*** to read that mountainous post from Neoseeker, and right off the bat I'm seeing a lot of assumption, just saying.

As for your first part...
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The manga quote is speculative,

How so? It's Yamcha stating Krillin is the strongest. At worst that would mean Krillin was stronger than Tenshinhan at the Cell Games.
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Toriyama forgets more things about DB than any of us,

Okay, and in this case?
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and unless you count video games/other fans as reliable source material, then my statement still stands.

I don't see how when every single point of yours has been countered.
Edited by Pyrus, Aug 24 2014, 06:04 AM.
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POOHEAD189 Aug 24 2014, 06:06 AM Post #8
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@POOHEAD: Do you have a smaller list of points there? The burden of proof would be on you to prove Tenshinhan is stronger here. It's quite a b*** to read that mountainous post, just saying.

Well most of your links were just you repeating yourself too so...
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How so? It's Yamcha stating Krillin is the strongest. At worst that would mean Krillin was stronger than Tenshinhan at the Cell Games.

He's talking to Krillin's daughter. And even if Tien IS human (which he's just as likely not), he hasn't seen Tien in 7 years and doesn't even know if Tenshinhan is human himself.

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Okay, and in this case?

I myself tend to think that AT Interviews are...questionable at best.

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I don't see how when every single point of yours has been countered.

I think the same. All your argument boils down to, despite all the links, is Yamcha must be right, AT doesn't confuse things, and video games are canon.
Tha gaol agam ort. <3
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DSTREET45 Aug 24 2014, 06:13 AM Post #9
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POOHEAD189
Aug 24 2014, 05:15 AM
Tien.

I prefer going with logic and the manga over Toriyama who contradicts.
How? What logic proves that Tien>Krilli post Saiyan Saga?
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And if Toriyama is infallible in his judgement, then that doesn't change my answer. It just makes Tien not human. (which I dislike since one of the main reasons I enjoyed Tien at first was because he was such a skilled human).


Piccolo outright calls Krillin and Tien Earthlings in the manga.
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POOHEAD189 Aug 24 2014, 06:17 AM Post #10
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DSTREET45
Aug 24 2014, 06:13 AM
POOHEAD189
Aug 24 2014, 05:15 AM
Tien.

I prefer going with logic and the manga over Toriyama who contradicts.
How? What logic proves that Tien>Krilli post Saiyan Saga?
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And if Toriyama is infallible in his judgement, then that doesn't change my answer. It just makes Tien not human. (which I dislike since one of the main reasons I enjoyed Tien at first was because he was such a skilled human).


Piccolo outright calls Krillin and Tien Earthlings in the manga.
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The fact of the matter here is that Goku picked both Tenshinhan and Piccolo over Kuririn to help him with the androids. Yamcha is nearly dead and the two androids the group trained so hard for are right in front of them. They trained their asses off because of these two threats, so wouldn't it be common sense for Goku to pick the two strongest to stay with him just in case? Especially after hearing how strong they are from Trunks, and the fact that Goku couldn't sense how strong they actually were? Of course. Not only was Tenshinhan closer to Yamcha, but he was standing right next to Goku. So why is Goku going to turn and yell over at Kuririn to take Yamcha back? This scan shows it. Proof of Tenshinhan's strength can be seen with his neo tri-beam. That's the power of his ki raining down on Cell. Also, I'd like to show you these two scans for multiple reasons. First the scans: here and here. First off, look at their stances in the first scan. They were all ready to fight the androids. This supports my assumption that Goku would have picked the two strongest fighters to stay, I mean...Isn't it common sense? Even if Goku didn't want them to fight, he'd want the strongest backup. Goku couldn't have known if the androids were going to attack them right there or not, thus why he picked the strongest to stay behind. The second scan shows Tenshinhan's new strength. Not only did he see Gero's attack coming at him, but he also dodged it with Goku. I'm not saying he was around base Goku's strength, but he has to be pretty strong to do those things. Now…Trunks, Tenshinhan and Kuririn arrive where Piccolo is after his skirmish with Imperfect Cell. A plan is made, one pair goes after Cell, while the other pair find Gero's lab with pupil Cell and destroys that. Trunks leads the team that will search for the lab because he knows where it is, and knows what's going on in this situation, and it's his sole duty to stop the threat of Cell in this timeline. Piccolo leads the team that will try to find Imperfect Cell. Piccolo has to pick between Tenshinhan and Kuririn. He'd pick the better, stronger choice to help him track down Cell, right? Of course he would. Cell is extremely strong and dangerous. Again, that seems like common sense to me. Well, anyways...Do you remember who Piccolo picked? Check it out right here. Oh yeah, now look at this scan. It seems that Tenshinhan wants to help pretty badly, doesn't it? The reason he didn't go into the ROSAT near the end of the android saga saga was because only the Saiyans had a chance against Perfect Cell. He STILL wouldn't have been able to help in any way even if he went in the ROSAT, thus why he didn't. He knew that the Saiyans were the only chance, and he knew that he would die anyways if they failed. Once again, the Saiyans were the only chance for this last battle. The lives of everyone hung on their shoulders. If they failed, then everyone would parish. There was no need for him to train for this final battle with Cell. That however does not mean he quit training for the rest of his life. That is an absurd thought and there is no proof to back up that statement.
for your first query (and please don't try to use the fact he referred to the Kikoho as reasoning he doesn't know what he's talking about).

And is that a Viz translation?

Edit: Listen, it all boils down to what material we find reliable. I think the character's attitudes toward the characters implies Tien >Krillin. But I COULD think that way because I'm a writer and put a lot into characterizations.
And I realize the vast majority here think Krillin > Tien and I can respect that. But I don't think this way because of fanboyism. I dislike Vegeta but have NO problem with him being stronger than Tien in every saga, in base. I'd still be a fan if Tien lost all power and became like that farmer at BoZ.
Edited by POOHEAD189, Aug 24 2014, 06:38 AM.
Tha gaol agam ort. <3
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DSTREET45 Aug 24 2014, 07:04 AM Post #11
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POOHEAD189
Aug 24 2014, 06:17 AM
The fact of the matter here is that Goku picked both Tenshinhan and Piccolo over Kuririn to help him with the androids
Proves nothing. Goku also chose everyone else over Gohan to search for the Androids. Does that mean he's weaker than Yamcha?
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Yamcha is nearly dead and the two androids the group trained so hard for are right in front of them. They trained their asses off because of these two threats, so wouldn't it be common sense for Goku to pick the two strongest to stay with him just in case?


Speculation. And again by that logic Gohan is the weakest out of the group despite training with Goku and Piccolo, two people massively stronger than Tien.

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Proof of Tenshinhan's strength can be seen with his neo tri-beam. That's the power of his ki raining down on Cell.

That's the power of an attack that makes the Kamehameha from an equal level fighter look massively inferior according to Master Roshi and by extension, Goku.

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Also, I'd like to show you these two scans for multiple reasons. First the scans: here and here. First off, look at their stances in the first scan. They were all ready to fight the androids. This supports my assumption that Goku would have picked the two strongest fighters to stay, I mean...Isn't it common sense? Even if Goku didn't want them to fight, he'd want the strongest backup. Goku couldn't have known if the androids were going to attack them right there or not, thus why he picked the strongest to stay behind. The second scan shows Tenshinhan's new strength. Not only did he see Gero's attack coming at him, but he also dodged it with Goku. I'm not saying he was around base Goku's strength, but he has to be pretty strong to do those things.


And Krillin dodged Nappa punch while Tien couldn't react to the guy. I guess that proves Krilllin>Tien in Saiyan Saga.

Quote:
 
Now…Trunks, Tenshinhan and Kuririn arrive where Piccolo is after his skirmish with Imperfect Cell. A plan is made, one pair goes after Cell, while the other pair find Gero's lab with pupil Cell and destroys that. Trunks leads the team that will search for the lab because he knows where it is, and knows what's going on in this situation, and it's his sole duty to stop the threat of Cell in this timeline. Piccolo leads the team that will try to find Imperfect Cell. Piccolo has to pick between Tenshinhan and Kuririn. He'd pick the better, stronger choice to help him track down Cell, right? Of course he would. Cell is extremely strong and dangerous. Again, that seems like common sense to me. Well, anyways...Do you remember who Piccolo picked?


And that means what? Later Piccolo tells everyone including Tien to stay out of the fight against 17. And why would Tien be useful in combat if Piccolo at this point is massively above Cell and could take him on his own (very easily might I add)? Cell is a danger to no one if Piccolo finds him. At that at this point Cell is masking his Ki so they needed to find him with other means including eyesight and guess how any Tien has? Not to mention that his eyes were stated to be very perceptive by Goku in the Budokai. Tien was there to find Cell not fight him. Especially considering how Tien was shocked/afraid of how strong Piccolo had gotten pre-Kami powerup, practically cementing his inferiority when it came to combat involving Goku or Piccolo.
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Check it out right here. Oh yeah, now look at this scan. It seems that Tenshinhan wants to help pretty badly, doesn't it? The reason he didn't go into the ROSAT near the end of the android saga saga was because only the Saiyans had a chance against Perfect Cell. He STILL wouldn't have been able to help in any way even if he went in the ROSAT, thus why he didn't. He knew that the Saiyans were the only chance, and he knew that he would die anyways if they failed. Once again, the Saiyans were the only chance for this last battle. The lives of everyone hung on their shoulders. If they failed, then everyone would parish. There was no need for him to train for this final battle with Cell. That however does not mean he quit training for the rest of his life. That is an absurd thought and there is no proof to back up that statement.


Proves what? That Tien likes training but didn't try the ROSAT? So what? Show me that Tien made worthwhile gains in the seven year time skip.
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+ Pyrus Aug 24 2014, 07:44 AM Post #12
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Well most of your links were just you repeating yourself too so...

Most of them are smaller posts, though. That was my point, but nonetheless.
Quote:
 
He's talking to Krillin's daughter. And even if Tien IS human (which he's just as likely not), he hasn't seen Tien in 7 years and doesn't even know if Tenshinhan is human himself.

He thought the part about "among earthlings" to himself, not Maron, so that would only be an insight into what Yamcha thought on his own, not influenced by any particular bias. As I said, at worst that would make Krillin stronger than Tenshinhan at the Cell Games, the last time they were all factually together and able to sense each other.

Your second assertion is conjecture and would need to be proven. That would likely slip into a debate about Ten's gains over the 7 years, which is complete conjecture and not a top issue of this debate.

Not to mention, like I said, "human" is not the term being debated, as everybody from Goku to Freeza to Ginyu to Boo have been called humans. "Earthling" is the term being used here, which Tenshinhan is by every single account, including the very same guidebook entry that brings up his alien ancestry. He is an earthling by all accounts.
Pyrus
 
Look at when the humans show up to help Piccolo (Gohan is away flying Yajirobe and Bulma back to safety, so don't even think about bringing him into this) go after Gero to stop him from activating the androids. Krillin and Tenshinhan are there with Piccolo. Krillin complains about being cold and Piccolo says to himself, "Earthlings are so...inconvenient." Right there, with Krillin and Ten standing right by each other, Piccolo calls them earthlings.

Skip ahead to the Boo arc when Gohan asks Krillin to enter the tournament. Krillin says if Piccolo doesn't enter, he'll be able to make it to 5th place (Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, No.18, him), and this is before it's commented on that Gohan couldn't find Tenshinhan (that's much later), so Krillin also didn't think Tenshinhan would be able to beat him, at least in a tournament setting.
[1]
Quote:
 
I myself tend to think that AT Interviews are...questionable at best.

They would still outweigh fan opinion unless a direct contradiction was brought up, like Babidi clearly not being a doppleganger of Bibidi. In this case, there is no direct contradiction. There is no statement saying Tenshinhan is the strongest, nor him outperforming Krillin at any point post-Saiyan battle.
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I think the same. All your argument boils down to, despite all the links, is Yamcha must be right, AT doesn't confuse things, and video games are canon.

That sounds like a straw man.

Ah, I see a new post.
Quote:
 
The fact of the matter here is that Goku picked both Tenshinhan and Piccolo over Kuririn to help him with the androids. Yamcha is nearly dead and the two androids the group trained so hard for are right in front of them. They trained their asses off because of these two threats, so wouldn't it be common sense for Goku to pick the two strongest to stay with him just in case? Especially after hearing how strong they are from Trunks, and the fact that Goku couldn't sense how strong they actually were? Of course. Not only was Tenshinhan closer to Yamcha, but he was standing right next to Goku. So why is Goku going to turn and yell over at Kuririn to take Yamcha back? This scan shows it. Proof of Tenshinhan's strength can be seen with his neo tri-beam. That's the power of his ki raining down on Cell. Also, I'd like to show you these two scans for multiple reasons. First the scans: here and here. First off, look at their stances in the first scan. They were all ready to fight the androids. This supports my assumption that Goku would have picked the two strongest fighters to stay, I mean...Isn't it common sense? Even if Goku didn't want them to fight, he'd want the strongest backup. Goku couldn't have known if the androids were going to attack them right there or not, thus why he picked the strongest to stay behind. The second scan shows Tenshinhan's new strength. Not only did he see Gero's attack coming at him, but he also dodged it with Goku. I'm not saying he was around base Goku's strength, but he has to be pretty strong to do those things. Now…Trunks, Tenshinhan and Kuririn arrive where Piccolo is after his skirmish with Imperfect Cell. A plan is made, one pair goes after Cell, while the other pair find Gero's lab with pupil Cell and destroys that. Trunks leads the team that will search for the lab because he knows where it is, and knows what's going on in this situation, and it's his sole duty to stop the threat of Cell in this timeline. Piccolo leads the team that will try to find Imperfect Cell. Piccolo has to pick between Tenshinhan and Kuririn. He'd pick the better, stronger choice to help him track down Cell, right? Of course he would. Cell is extremely strong and dangerous. Again, that seems like common sense to me. Well, anyways...Do you remember who Piccolo picked? Check it out right here. Oh yeah, now look at this scan. It seems that Tenshinhan wants to help pretty badly, doesn't it? The reason he didn't go into the ROSAT near the end of the android saga saga was because only the Saiyans had a chance against Perfect Cell. He STILL wouldn't have been able to help in any way even if he went in the ROSAT, thus why he didn't. He knew that the Saiyans were the only chance, and he knew that he would die anyways if they failed. Once again, the Saiyans were the only chance for this last battle. The lives of everyone hung on their shoulders. If they failed, then everyone would parish. There was no need for him to train for this final battle with Cell. That however does not mean he quit training for the rest of his life. That is an absurd thought and there is no proof to back up that statement.

Ehhhqh, I can't really do anything with this one until I can get home to my manga and get some context and actual pages to look at, but I can tell right away that that's a lot of speculation, that parts of this aren't actually comparing the two characters, and the whole piece about not going into the RoSaT and not continuing to train is irrelevant fluff.
[1] http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8786058&t=8423067
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+ Clearin Aug 24 2014, 12:53 PM Post #13
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 Krillin has three different sources saying he's stronger (though one of them only applies to BoG and one only applies to early Boo saga), while Tien has literally zero things saying he's stronger. Gotta go with Krillin beating Tien here.
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Kblo247 Aug 24 2014, 01:31 PM Post #14
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 Let's play card deck.

Interviews
- Toriyama has said Krillins the strongest

Manga
- Krillin is stated as the strongest and Yamcha thinks it to himself

BoG Guide Book
- Krillin is the strongest

Vegeta
- Krillin is referred to by name, while Tien is never even acknowledged much like the trash that is Yamcha.

Toei
- in GT, old man Krillin thinks he can protect 18 from regular 17; he doesn't know about hell empowering him, so he's still relatively powerful.
- he's taken to Namek to fight in the cooler movies, appeared in every movie but 13, and in a few goes to help Goku, like when they think a meteorite is crashing to earth at slug.
- he's Grand Kai's plan B, mistaken for a ssj Goku and Vegeta, stronger than Pikkon and everyone in other world
- Tien admits he is scared of Vegeta and piccolo at 19 and 20, Krillin in filler meets cell and physically strikes him and makes him shriek in pain
- on the lookout Krillin is next in line when it comes after the Saiyans and Piccolo, as he is the one to attack Super Buu, when Tien hid from Buu and didn't even care about anyone of his friends dying until the dragonballs would be gone and he defected a blast aimed at Dende.

Feats
- Tien could not even finish a saibaman; Krillin killed 3, the Saiyans put up a guard, and the z fighters ran.
- Versus Nappa, Krillin actually dodges him and gets in a hit; Tien got his hand chopped off and the snot beat out of him.


By every definition, Krillin in DBZ, in Z is more powerful, more useful, more resourceful, and more respected. Tien is a tri beam spammer, nothing more.

Hell Krillin made even bigger gains than Tien on the lookout. And the whole but he got sent off with Yamcha thing is funny because Gohan got sent off with Yajirobe. We all know though that Gohan was superior to Tien and spent years training with a ssj and piccolo, has fought Frieza, and has untapped power; we also ignore the fact that Krillin and Gohan aren't the ones peeing themselves because Vegeta and Piccolo are so strong
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Mike XL Aug 24 2014, 04:51 PM Post #15
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 Unless one can prove that Tenshinhan is actually an alien descendent, statements appear to put Krillen over him.
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